Real’s Response to stopbadware.org

The folks at stopbadware.org have sent their second alert in less than a month calling RealPlayer “badware” because the organization takes exception to the Message Center in an older version of the player, and a flaw in the un-install process in our current version.

I actually admire what stopbadware is trying to do to keep consumers safe.  But in this case the only thing bad is the report itself.  Here’s why: Not a single claim raised by stopbadware actually hurts anyone. 

Yet the report cites such egregious practices as promoting movie trailers or security software that consumers can enjoy by using Real’s software.

Message Center tells consumers about video they can enjoy using RealPlayer (film.com is owned by RealNetworks) or security and performance software they can download from McAfee because they are Real customers.

The truth is that I actually found the Message Center in the old RealPlayer to be annoying too.  So I turned it off.  Not rocket science.  And certainly not the sin stopbadware alleges. 

And here’s the thing: lots of our customers told us they didn’t like the Message Center either.  So guess what?  We turned it off in our current version so not a single person ever sees it unless they go and turn it on.  Stopbadware even gives us credit for this improvement in the user experience. But that’s old software so I’m not sure why we’re talking about it.  We announced the availability RealPlayer 11 on May 31st of last year¬ nearly a year ago. RealPlayer 11 is the default application you download from RealNetworks today.  And it has won the acclaim of The Wall Street Journal (subscription required), USA Today, Businessweek and Wired for being consumer friendly and innovative.  That’s why millions of people around the world have downloaded it since.

Stopbadware raises a second claim with respect to the current version of RealPlayer: That we install the Rhapsody music player engine without explaining the connection between it and RealPlayer, and then we fail to remove it during the RealPlayer un-install process.  Well, they have a point here.  But it’s not that consumers will be hurt by this oversight.  It’s that someone failed to explain the connection between the two (RealPlayer is a universal media player, so we install support for all major media formats like Windows Media Player, QuickTime and, yes, our own Rhapsody), and that we also didn’t catch that in the un-install process. (though to be fair, the Rhapsody player engine is listed in the windows control panel add/remove programs and can easily be uninstalled from there)  As far as we know, no one has been hurt by this mistake.  In the software business we call that a bug and we fix it in our next version of the software. 

We will continue to make improvements to RealPlayer, and I think you’ll see that just like we did in our current version those changes are intended to give consumers more innovation ¬like being the first to give people the ability to simply download Internet video ¬and a better experience.  That’s why we simplified the installation process and why removed extraneous features and promotions. 

Let us know what you think.

-Jeff Chasen, vice president for RealPlayer

Comments

[Daniel]

I think the problem folks have with the Message Center is that it is difficult to disable. I personally never install Real products on a Windows computer because of the Message Center feature.

I have no problem with Real Player on Mac or Linux. But the Windows version comes with too much ‘crap’.

[Travis]

Your software (and software like it) is the entire reason people are scared to install software from the internet. You include things they don't want and make it as confusing as you possibly can. Then make statements like "So I turned it off. Not rocket science" which basically shows that you have NO regard for people with less computer skills than yourself. Sir for that comment alone I cannot believe that you are vice president of realplayer. All I can hope is that the president has more common sense than you.

The problem that I see is that you warn people of the other software that is installed such as googles worthless toolbar. In the case of this google toolbar you pop up a real warning and give people a clear way to avoid installing it.

Why you would see the complaints about the older version as being invalid? A lot of people do not upgrade software. That means that THOUSANDS of computers have this software installed. As he article clearly states "RealPlayer 10.5 is still widely distributed" which is the reason for the badware report.

I cannot see how software developers can write something off as a "bug" so easily. You claim "Well, they have a point here. But it’s not that consumers will be hurt by this oversight." How can you be so sure that we will not be hurt? I would think a company as large as this would spend countless hours testing both the installer and uninstaller before distributing the software. To make a mistake in the installer/uninstaller such as this is almost unforgivable (and probably intentional).

Here is my opinion of the whole situation. If your company cannot afford to develop and give away software for free then DON'T. I cannot see why every application I install has to be riddled with things like google taskbar, advertisements, and everything else under this sun you can think of to make a buck or two. Possibly it may be time to rethink the business model that you are using?

It isn't enough to say "As far as we know, no one has been hurt by this mistake" and "In the software business we call that a bug and we fix it in our next version of the software" that is just another way of saying you simply don't care. If I was a gambler I would bet that these "mistakes" were totally intentional or that your development team is totally incompetent. What would you do if a massive bug were to be discovered in the Rhapsody engine?

In the future why not use an honest installer that simply installs the software I have selected without installing ANYTHING else. Simply if I want other software packages such as googles toolbar I can go find it.

That is my 2 cents and I'm sure you will remove this comment because I'm critical of you and this company seems to have little regard for its users.

[Manfred]

Thanks for the info!
If you take things that easy, it's better to remove the software.
By the way, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today and Businessweek are not my primary sources on computer security.

[Duncan]

Thanks Jeff for responding to stopbadware.org. However I take their view over yours for a number of reasons.
These are:
1. Realplayer has generally annoyed me over the years with bloat, annoying messages and starting up with Windows by default.
2. Everything stopbadware said was true, its a matter of perspective and as a user rather than an employee/owner of RealPlayer they seem to have my interests at heart.
3. Not uninstalling software which should be uninstalled sounds harmless enough but it is not. A computer has limited resources and they are mine to control. All non-trivial software has bugs and therefore potential security holes. See Secunia Advisory SA28276 for instance :(
I have not installed Realplayer for years I'm afraid it's just too annoying.

[Tux]

I won't care about no *(@$#*@ badware claims until you release a Linux version of Realplayer 11.

[Jeff Chasen]

Daniel, Travis, Manfred and Duncan,

Thanks for taking the time to share your views about my post or more generally about RealPlayer. Although I’m a technology guy, I am working hard to make RealPlayer not only the most innovative media player, e.g., one-click downloading, but also one that is more consumer friendly than it has been in the past. I will leave you with three promises, and if you are so inclined to comment further, I certainly welcome it:

1. I am going to fix the Rhapsody uninstall problem. When I do, I’ll post here to let you know.
2. We are committed to making sure RealPlayer is consumer friendly. Just today we had a phone conversation with the folks at stopbadware.org. They are good guys. We discussed our perspectives, which were sometimes different, but we agreed on the most fundamental piece: we need to do what’s right for the consumer¬ and the rest will fall into place. We also agreed to keep the dialogue open as we prepare for future releases.
3. I will continue to listen to you. Keep posting, even if it’s critical. If you have product ideas or suggested improvements, let me have them.

-Jeff Chasen, vice president for RealPlayer

[alex]

mi carro es verde

[Mike]

I downloaded realplayer and now I get .ivr extentions on streaming audio, which will not play on my mp3 how do i correct this?

[Michael]

(BUG) "Download this video" only accessible from the right click menu not working correctly!!

I have Real Player 11 (6.0.14.748) Final setup to not show the "Download this video" only accessible from the right click menu. But with every Beta and now the final build the "Download this video" still shows when playing video on web pages. Will this a bug be fixed?

I am running Windows Vista 32Bit

Real Please fix this bug!

[James]

Jeff:

A couple of brief comments. First, I DO like Real Player and I THINK I'd like Rhapsody. If it ever worked. There are technical problems, which would be fine if your tech support was either a)reachable or b)helpful.

I'm sure you don't intend to make your tech support unreachable. That would make it a guarantee that I'd never upgrade to the "fully-paid" customer status I'm sure you'd like me to be. After all, Real is a profit-making venture, at least ideally, as well it should be.

However, the last time I upgraded, something went awry and now I can't open ANY videos, Real didn't capture the video titles, and I can't seem to go back and have it go back over both my video and audio libraries again and pick up what it missed.

These are problems. I MIGHT take the time to sit around and fix them if tech support was either available, or knowledgable, but I work 10-12 hours a day, regular business hours, I don't have time to wait on the phone, and your guysngalz are not available to ME when I'm available to THEM.

The thing about it is, I AM your ideal customer. I make a good living, love music, want to built a playlist, import it to my player, burn discs, and so on.

But I ALSO work very hard every day, don't have a lot of free time, and have less than no interest in BECOMING technically savvy. Like my dry cleaning, I work so hard so I can earn enough money to pay OTHER people to do what I don't want to do.

Somewhere, somehow, in your business model, you overlooked me. But I am NOT an aberration. Let me explain. I am a marketing consultant. That don't mean no this or that, except insofar that, in my daily life, I have to KNOW what consumers want, what they think, and how they act. It's what they pay me for.

When I DON'T know the answer to a question, or when something new or "odd" comes up, I go looking for answers. The best answers come from the very consumers you're trying to appeal to. But I've never been solicited for my comments, opinions, anything else. And neither has anyone I know. . .and the reason I KNOW this is because I asked.

Look, I'm sure you don't think that people really need to become more "tech-Y" in order to grok Real and Rhapsody. I'm sure you want one-click, headache free happy joy software fun for everybody. But that ain't what came out.

I'm afraid that, after noodling it around quite extensively, I have to choose another music, video, media player. One that doesn't expect so much of me. One that is SO great, I'll WANT to pay for even more.

Perhaps you should CHANGE the model. Instead of breaking my head open, and then saying "you can have more if you pay me" you should remember that, at the end of the day, consumers have the most important of all powers; the power to walk away, and find something else.

THIS is the sound of one man walkin'.

Warm Regards,

James.

[John Smith]

Blaming the stopbadware.org report instead of your broken software is not a good approach for any company.

This gives a clear impression that you simply do not care! Fighting back in this manner shows your cowboy approach in today's consumer-friendly world.

RealMedia files can easily be played by the less annoying alternative called RealAlternative (just Google it!)

Also having 20 different sites for Real.com around the world shows how inconsistent your company is!

If you are not consistent with your sites around the world, how can we believe that you are consistent with your software...(just learn from Apple!)

[Mehmet Gokturk]

Just wanted to add few comments. I have been a realplayer/server/producer user since version 1.0. Have created extensive sites using real player files. But everytime a new version is introduced, your software got bigger, slower, bloated and harder to use for visitors. Not to mention unchecked install checkboxes at the top of the list but checked defaults in the invisible area in one of the earlier versions.
You simply lost in live streaming. I still operate an ethnic music site which i still have rm files from version 1.0. Your new versions always create trouble. Why don't you install tiny earlier codecs to your player.

Last week, i was offline and wanted to play a video file in a class demonstration (where i teach graduate computer science). You know what happened? RealPlayer gave me a message saying "Real Player has expired, download a new version" and exited. For God's sake, an expired "free" software can't exist. If it expires, call it as shareware. You may keep popping version messages but local file playing becomes impossble with your product. And furthermore, At the time of installation i wasn't aware of an expiration date. What if i was using realplayer in a local school in africa? Expired....
A local radio station that i sponsor have web based player object installed in their web pages. People can listen them with symbian phones. Fine. But after last version, object does not appear on website anymore. check yourself. www.ortfm.com
Today, i tried to download the software from your site and getting 404 message.

Please get smaller, small is beautiful.
Sell the content. we will buy it.

Mehmet from Istanbul
www.turkishmusic.org

[nobody]

Underlying all the comments here is the fundamental corporate problem of real: a screw you attitude towards customers and users.

I went to the rhapsody site today to see if I might want it. When I tried to play some clips, I got a message saying my OS was incompatible. However my OS was on the list of compatible OSs.

I looked for a link to tell you your javascript was not checking OSs right. Everywhere I found a contact link it said paying customers only.

This is the first link I found where I could communicate anything to you.

[Jennifer]

We will continue to make improvements to RealPlayer, and I think you’ll see that just like we did in our current version those changes are intended to give consumers more innovation ¬like being the first to give people the ability to simply download Internet video ¬and a better experience. That’s why we simplified the installation process and why removed extraneous features and promotions.

MY RESPONSE

As of the other day many others including myself had express concern
with REAL's performance. As of current, every employee (including
those in live chat) has failed to answer ANY questions. By ignoring
these requests, you are further damanging your already 'dented'
appearance.

Is lack of service I'm experiencing the usual and standard of REAL?
What is the excuse for a lackadaisical attitude on the part of any of
your employees? Let me guess, "You're sorry for the inconvenience and
annoyance these incidents caused."

Your lack of response relative to certain unsatisfactory aspects of
REAL's performance, proves that you are not impressed with the quality
of your product nor your customers. Why not give the customers what
they want?

I am unable to thank you in a special manner for your hard work,
loyalty and faithfulness. Not to mention your outstanding customer
service.

How about this; Next time don't try to exceed my expectations. Just
try to meet them.

Oh and please. Can I be assisted by an AMERICAN who SPEAKS ENGLISH?

[Will in Korea]

Sorry, but the folks at stopbadware.org are right. My Real Player was working fine until I downloaded the new version. Then I got this annoying bar at the top that I couldn't get rid of unless I purchased the upgraded version. I have chosen to delete Real Player from my computer and use Gom player instead.

[Gail]

So who can actually get Real Player to install anyway?

I'm trying to install it for a client because they requested it. This is a brand new Windows XP Home (service pack 3) installation with nothing on it except AVG Anti-virus and Windows Defender.

The Real Player installation is using 90 - 100% of the CPU for the installation! After trying to install for over an hour we are bagging it, there are other, better, and less CPU intensive programs out there.

[katy Jacobs]

my kids tried to install real player and now every time i try to use the computer the message pops up must be connected to internet - do not want real player installed but how do I stop it.

[Vectorpedia(Rick)]

I would like to say that RealPlayer has first class products......I call them "goodware"

[displeased]

real player 11 created a program to encourage joe public to steal music and videos from any streaming site including myspace and any flash player. with the caveat that the end user should have permission from the copyright owner. are you joking in your expectation that an end user would agree to contact the copyright owners? c'mon.

[Julie]

I have a problem with RealPlayer11 that saddens me. I had been loving the video capture feature tremendously because I love online karaoke and your new RealPlayer has given me the opportunity to capture and save my own audio/video for my personal use. Although I am a "free" customer, I feel that I have been good advertising for your product. I tell everyone to check out the nwe RealPlayer. Because of that I feel that I should have some assistance in this problem without having to purchsae the upgrade.

As I said, I've been loving the video capture. In the last week, however, that feature has simply stopped working. I have been to the forums and find that there are a good number of others who have had the same thing happen to them. Most say that the button comes on above the video, but when they click on it, nothing happens. I don't even have that! When I try to capture the video, the download button never appears. I have tried on all different sites that have video. None have been downloaded.

I have uninstalled and reinstalled RealPlayer and it still does not work. I need answers, please.

[Maria]

I have installed RealPlayer with no problems.......superior product

[d.r.faulkner]

Why does realplayer shut down my computer whenever I go to a certain website? It makes me sooo mad everyday....I just read the site, do not use the realplayer.

[Brandon Fowler]

RealPlayer, I feel sorry for you having to deal with people like the last post "Why does realplayer shut down my computer..." to where they really have absolutely no idea what they're doing and they're having problems that have NOTHING to do with RealPlayer (but they have to put the blame somewhere right?).

And now for what I really wanted to say:

A media player does NOT need a message center that can't be used for anything but messages and advertisements from the software company that made it. If it was its own messenger service that could be used like Live! Messenger or Yahoo Messenger that'd be one thing, but this is purely for ads. Sorry, but it's a silly thing to put in a media player to begin with.

In earlier versions of RealPlayer, you had to go through quite a hassle to disable the message center and realsched.exe. I know that at least since v10 that has been made easy to shut off. However, I don't think it's something that should be enabled by default. It should be DISABLED by default.

I REALLY REALLY liked RealPlayer until they came out with RealPlayer 11. I bragged about it to friends, I installed it on people's computers when I've fixed people's machines. V10 and earlier loaded very quickly and played songs almost immediately after loading. The new v11 takes usually about 10 seconds to load and 5 seconds to start playing the song, sometimes much longer. That is an unacceptable amount of time to wait around. That's almost as bad as WinAmp. The time it took to operate is the primary reason why I used to use RealPlayer. Now it's as bloated as the competition and there are no significant advantages to using it over the others except for possibly that "download this video" option.

I'm also confused as to why y'all STILL haven't added 24bit wav support, and you still haven't allowed people to change the resolution of visualizations. Why? This isn't 2001, a lot of people are working with DVD quality audio nowadays, and most people have video cards that can handle 3d rendering at resolutions larger than 800x600. Visualizations look like crap when they're stretched instead of recalculated.

Overall I think RealPlayer has been a good product until version 11 came out. Waiting 15 seconds to hear a song is unacceptable. Bloated code is the reason why I don't use WinAmp, and it seems it is the reason why I'm going to be uninstalling RealPlayer v11 and putting v10 back on. I've given it a test run for 2 weeks and have been thoroughly disappointed.

Also, stop trying to include other software from other companies in the installer. That's not a good way to get people to trust you. "I" may know how to disable a lot of things, but people who don't know much may not be able to do that.

I hope I don't have any problems uninstalling V11 or I will be writing a very unpleasant review in the near future.

RealPlayer 10 is superb. RealPlayer 11 is a giant piece of bloatware.

[bd]

Realplayer browser record plugin 1.0 not compatible with Firefox 3.0 when is it going to be updated

[Morrison]

Please Real Player!!!!!!

Release a new Real Player browser record plugin to Firefox 3.0!

Real Player Browser Record Plugin 1.0 kicked ass in the previously version of Firefox.